Denver In Studio Podcast

Transcript

[0:00] Music.

[0:20] March 1st, 2024, as part of our first live event at UW Denver. This also happens to be the very first debate we're having on Rehash, and today we're hearing from three amazing guests representing three different.

[0:31] Music. who you've heard on Rehash before in Season 6, Episode 5, and again in our Season 6 bonus episode. From Arbitron, we have Disruption Joe. And finally, from Optimism, we have Benji joining us. We start out by giving each guest an opportunity to give an opening statement about why the Layer 2 chain they represent is the best one. And then each guest has a chance to share some popular use cases for projects that are currently being built on their chain to give us a better idea of some of the advantages that their chain has to offer. And then finally we wrap up with closing statements and give each of our guests a chance to respond to some of the things that the others have said. This debate is all in good fun and obviously all of us all believe in a multi-chain feature and are rooting for the success of all three chains but we do have some fun with it and we wrap up the episode by asking our live studio audience in Denver to vote on which chain they're most bullish on after hearing the debate. At the end of the day, we all want each other to win and we all want Ethereum to win as well.

[0:34] Layer 2 chains, Polygon, Arbitrum, and Optimism. Representing Polygon, we have Hudson Jameson, VP at Polygon,

[1:47] This is now officially our final episode of the season, so we'll be off for the next couple of weeks as we gear up for Season 8 and give you all a chance to catch up on any missed episodes from this season. Please make sure you're subscribed to us on your favorite podcast platform as well as on youtube at rehash web 3 and sub stack at rehash web 3.substack.com and follow us on socials at rehash web 3 so you don't miss out on any new content please join us on telegram at t.me slash rehash web 3 to be the first to get updates and to chat with the rest of our listeners and even have a chance to ask any questions you have to our guests. I really hope you enjoy our live recording and don't forget to follow, rate, and review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts to help others find out about rehash. See you next season.

[2:42] We're live in Denver. This is our very first IRL rehash event with a live audience. The first time. Woohoo! Yeah, let's hear it.

[2:52] Amazing. First of all, I just want to give a shout out to our sponsors Layer Zero and Clusters for making this happen. Layer Zero is an immutable, permissionless, and censorship-resistant protocol that connects blockchains. You can check out more about them at layerzero.network. And Clusters is one name for all of your wallets and all of your chains, you can check them out and get your name at clusters.xyz. So today on our first panel of the day, we have three very special guests with us to debate L2s. So starting from my right side, we have Disruption Joe, who is a community steward and delegate and head of growth and everything at Arbitrum DAO. To my left, we have Hudson Jameson, who is VP at Polygon Labs. And then down there is Benji, who is a contributor to the Optimism Collective. So this is a new podcast format that I've been wanting to try for a really long time. I started my career as an attorney, and there's a part of me that really never left that, just likes to kind of fight people. And so what I want to happen today is I want the three of you to have a little debate with each other about what is the best layer two chain out there. So we've got Arbitrum, Polygon, and Optimism. And how we're going to set this up is we're going to start with opening statements. So I'm going to give each of you two minutes to give your opening statement about why your L2 chain is the best one.

[4:15] So Joe, you want to kick us off? Two minutes on the clock. Sure. I'll put myself into the sacrificial place of going first with a bunch of friends and great people who are here to represent them. Here's why i came to arbitrum i was looking around and i wanted to implement some more decentralized governance structures do experimentation around grants i saw that they were giving all of the sequencer fee from the network to the dow they had a 9 to 12 multi-sig that actually ran an election through tally programmatically for upgrading the elections of that multi-sig for the security council.

[4:52] I saw a true decentralization today in how they were implementing at the DAO, the foundation, make sure that the DAO does things that are legal and compliant about outside that. They don't put their fingers on the scale, whether it's a great proposal or a really bad proposal.

[5:07] And OffChain Labs is continuing to have some of the best engineering minds in the world, like developing cutting-edge tech without having the pressure of the DAO needing to improve what they build. So they're out there delivering open-source software to the world, and the DAO can choose to add that to the network at any time. So number one is the decentralization. But as a builder in the space that's thinking about where to go, well, it's all about deep, deep liquidity. Almost more ETH has been bridged over. Five to one is the odds that ETH will bridge over will go to Arbitrum versus any other L2. So super deep liquidity. And then the technical maturity. Fraud proofs were on and working from the beginning of the network. And they've continue to advance. So for a builder, what you can think of is Arbitrum stands for freedom for builders. The Orbit chains, you can customize cryptographically, you can customize their governance, you could use your own token as gas fees. It gives you a lot of optionality. And Arbitrum's not really pushing one of them. We're looking to talk to builders, find out what the need is for their use case and how they can customize their own Arbitrum orbit sac, which could even resolve to an orbit or a optimism chain or polygon or whatever. The orbit chains can resolve wherever you want. So that's freedom for builders. I think freedom will have more impact in the long run.

[6:31] I love it. That's a great tagline. Great opening statement. I'm going to move over to Hudson for your opening statement about why Polygon is the best L2 chain. Absolutely. So I think that when it comes to Polygon, we've been around for a few years, obviously and we've gone through different phases it's kind of like a journey narrative type of thing so in the beginning.

[6:51] Mac Network became Polygon. We were there when Ethereum needed to scale with our POS sidechain, and people moved over to there. It was very easy to do. We still have a lot of activity on that chain, but it wasn't that that's all we wanted to do. That's just what was the best thing to do at the time for the high fees that were on Ethereum that needed to be offloaded to another chain. And from there, we've been really, really diligent on getting zero-knowledge technology up to par with what we feel is very important for decentralization and security. And actually, this is kind of like almost going to seem like it's bad for Polygon, but it's actually good. Everything we've learned from the last few years has come together this year with the idea of the aggregation layer and CDK chains where you can launch your own ZK roll-up. But beyond that, it's not just that you can do that and put pieces in place. Any ZK rollup, and that means one that you make through our CDK program or one that you bring on as a ZK rollup with just compatibility, can be in this aggregation layer so it can share liquidity across all other chains. So basically, if you want to trade Aave from something like Kanto on a CDK chain to the ZKVM, it's going to look like you're just on one chain. So that's really powerful. The other things I think is we have a lot of pragmatism and a really great growing community.

[8:13] So a lot of resources behind DevRel, a lot of ways to onboard people, you know, and partners and things like that. So, yeah, this is going to be a really good year for Polygon. I don't think it's a zero-sum game. I do think that like these, you know, Arbitrum and Optimism and other L2s that aren't super shady are going to, you know, have their place, obviously. But Polygon truly believes that ZK tech is the future. We also are looking into and building privacy chains like Midan. So there's a lot of ethos around decentralization, privacy. And generalized programmability in our chain. So it's not just one thing you can come in there and do. Great opening statement. Amazing pragmatism. You guys have been around for a while, lots of resources. And last but not least, Benji, please give your opening statement for why Optimism is the best L2 chain.

[9:04] Okay. So this might get a little personal on my side first. I can talk about why I joined Optimism as a person contributing to it. Love it. Love it. So I believe in this idea of contributor highways, I think what that is basically like the power of many minds usurps the power of one and like crypto has a unique way in order to like create collectives that allow those minds to kind of meld and work together and grow that increased mind share. I think we see it where like this entire industry started with a forum post. This guy Satoshi wrote a forum post. There was no value assigned to that forum post. People got interested, people bought into the belief of what's happening, what was trying to be built. So there were Ethereum and a lot of the growth of like a lot of parts of the space. So what does that look like on the optimism side?

[9:42] The Optimism Collective's mission is to create a realm where public goods are essentially like omnipresent and builders are rewarded as a result of it. And our heart, like our main goal there is like, how can we actually create a sustainable economy that has a flywheel that rewards contributors across the board? Ends this idea of like financial martyrdom for like making educational videos and things like that. So that's one part, which I think is deeply apart for me that was like being a builder previously who struggled with that, finding this as a home in which I feel like my contributions can be rewarded, despite the fact that it might not have direct financial impact was pretty nice for me. Personally, I think now spreading that broader into the contributor highways, what is the OP stack? The OP stack is an MIT license, open source code base. Anyone can go and fork it. Anyone can go and build their own stack through it. But if you want, you can opt in to join the super chain. And that is a contributor highway in itself. Obviously, we have Base, we have Mode, we have Optimism Mainnet, and a few other chains that are within that realm that are all working together. Zora, of course, shout out Zora.

[10:43] And what we're seeing there is even the apps built on top of it, Farcaster and the likes are all building one super chain. We're all kind of in that realm together. We're building this collective highway together to scale Ethereum together. And as a result, I see a lot of mindshare. If I were to give a statistic that makes me most optimistic. It's actually the growth of core developers of the OP stack. Base contributed 30% of the code at the last upgrade. Test and Prod, which is a team out of Korea who came in as contributors. They built OP Aragon. Recently, they just shipped Snapsync plus ban batches for the OP stack. And these are like all these contributors from all over the world, essentially working on this shared vision of how can we create a future where like crypto scales together and not apart. And it's like open call to action for people to join, which I think is that plus the RPGF flywheel as a way to create a very sustainable economy. I think those are things that make me excited. I love seeing a lot of the initiatives that we're doing. We ran an art contest recently, which was interesting. Yes, you led We Love the Art contest, which...

[11:41] I participated. I like aped into last second, even though I'm not an artist by any means. I can't do art. But I submitted this photograph I took when I went up Everest Base Camp last year at like the highest peak. And you're from Nepal, right? Yeah. So that was really meaningful. And I wrote a little like blurb about why it was meaningful to me. There was like no visibility the whole way. The clouds opened up for like 10 seconds for me to get this photo and all this stuff. But yeah, really cool. This is a good segue into I now want to get an idea of some of the use cases that your chains have been used for, because I think that's one of the best ways to help people understand new technology is by showing them use cases and how people are using it. So we love the art. That was a really great example of something that is being built on optimism or how people are using optimism. I'm going to give each of you again one or two minutes to tell us a little bit more about how people are using your chain. So you want to just start start off since you already started talking about that, Benji? Yeah, I can start off with We Love the Art. So We Love the Art is essentially this idea that what if we got 1.2 million OP, which is a prize pool across a super chain? So base or optimism or any artists within any of those chains could qualify, enter this contest.

[12:54] And what if we got judges from across the ecosystem inside of crypto, outside of crypto and went to the world as like not like an NFT minting contest or like how many minutes you get or anything, but just went to the world was like, hey, like you're an artist in the world. If you're a musician, if you like generative art, if you like one-of-ones, if you love AI art, you can actually apply for this contest. And what is interesting there, it actually ended up being the largest ever global art contest on a pure participation and prize pool size. How many submissions did you guys get? 7,400. Wow. And what was the total prize pool? 1.2 million OP, 188 winners. The top eight winners are going to get 50k OP.

[13:31] And artists have struggled a lot over the past year in crypto and in the world for a long, long time. And what we found in the insight there was crypto can galvanize and do things at massive global scale like this is a global art contest we have people from around the world kind of coming in first time on chain to do this art contest and it was really an interesting way to hear those stories learn about them and hopefully create a sustainable path for them to like stay on chain so that that's one i think the other things on user adoption is like what is the human thing that we are doing what are the emotions that like we can bring in users across the board and how can we enable developers to get that. We see things like Farcaster. We see communities being made from Farcaster, which is on OP mainnet. We see friends being made. We see like Farcons being organized. And I think we're really proud to like kind of foster that environment. I think it's a collaborative environment. Of course, Farcaster is not just going to be an optimism collective thing, an optimism mainnet thing. Like we love the art went across the super chain. We'd love to collaborate across the board to see how can we bring crypto to the world and help them also stay in the world. Yeah, there's a few initiatives. Love it. Lots of artists, creators, musicians, that sort of thing, funding people like that. I'm all about that. What about Polygon, Hudson? I'm going to jump over to you. Polygon's been around the longest, right? And there's so much all across the board that's been built on Polygon. So I know it's hard to generalize, like it is with optimism.

[14:55] It is hard to generalize, but I guess maybe just personally for you, which projects are you most excited about that were being built on Polygon or like, what are the best types of projects to use Polygon as a chain? Absolutely. So I think that due to how we do our tech infrastructure and how we build out our products, it really lends itself to use cases that need a very quick finality time, especially when bridging things over or when doing trading. So what we've been focusing on a lot is DeFi because being able to trade very quickly, provide things that help with or prevent arbitrage depending on your use case. And so we have different initiatives within DeFi so that you can very quickly, use a ZK roll-up to trade. And if you bridge funds in, it's not going to take forever. It's pretty much as instant as on Ethereum.

[15:47] And so, yeah, DeFi is a big one. I know that we have a good number of projects. I can't discuss all of that, but are going for D-Pen, which is kind of the real-world asset type use cases where you have people that need to maybe track something through a supply chain or maybe IoT devices enabled on chain. And part of the reason for that is you need that speed and technical prowess and stuff like that. So although I think with other chains like Optimism, it's great to really build for the builders and, you know, for people who are doing stuff like art on chain and things like that. And I do think that...

[16:23] That only goes so far for actually getting real-world mass adoption. It's something that should be on chains forever, basically. We should always be looking out for that. But once a lot of these pools of funds within each of our foundations and our ecosystem run lower or maybe there's big issues, then it's like, where's the actual bread and butter of what we're building to actually get people to actually adopt the software outside of the niche collectives we have in crypto? So I think that that's important. At the same time, I think we're also focusing on getting communities together. We have a new organization. They actually kind of soft launched at East Denver called Dabble, which is kind of the spinning out of Polygon Labs, DevRel, and kind of Guild's community program. So they're doing a lot of good things to really bring in builders and bring in community members for use cases like art contests and things like that but having that balance when you have a bunch of people building this very bleeding edge technology is always going to be a struggle i think that we're doing pretty good on that and i think this year it's going to be a lot better you're going to see a huge difference in how we are managing both sides of the coin you know mass adoption for some of the more boring stuff that's needed for blockchain to really breakout, but then also making sure that our builders and developers and creatives get a lot of use from it as well.

[17:45] Yeah, kind of all across the board. I think D-Pen is a really interesting use case. I can see it getting big in this next bull run as we're trying to propel crypto more to the mainstream because it's touching on such an antiquated traditional industry of supply chain. Like I was just talking to these guys. I used to live in Chicago for a while, which is like the logistics hub of the US and had some like supply chain companies that I worked with in some capacity. And that system is so antiquated. And so like, it's a shock to me that I ever get packages delivered to me and on time because the systems that they use are so like, you're like, how does this function? Like, there are literally so many better ways to do it. And now with crypto too, you know, that introduces even more ways of tracking these things and making sure that one thing that belongs to one person gets to that person. So you get like UPS guy at the door. You're like, wait, have you heard of blockchain? Bring it back to your company. Right. It might take a while. I think it's going to take a while and it might be a hard sell for them if they're not even fully exposed to like trad tech just yet. But hopefully we'll get there. And I think it's a super interesting use case.

[18:54] Joe, jumping over to you, Tell us about some of the most interesting use cases that people are using Arbitrum for.

[19:00] Sure. The obvious one from Arbitrum is DeFi, the fact that there is liquidity. If you're building a DeFi protocol, you probably are going to at least launch there to get liquidity, even if you're on other chains and so forth to find that. And a lot of that is because of the technical guarantees and maturity of the technology that allows for more institutional investment to say, well, where are we going to put our funds? And liquidity begets liquidity. So it's kind of a situation where, from that standpoint, it's kind of arbitrums to lose right now.

[19:34] So for the DeFi side, that's kind of a situation that's evolved. But the use cases I think are most interesting are ones with either Orbit Chain or a stylus. And the Orbit Chains are using kind of an innovation in governance around this idea of like a community license where you can build whatever you want, similar to like a super chain type idea. And you can even build clusters of these that work like a super chain where they have a similar governance but you think if you cluster with a bunch of other games and then your game gets really popular and now those other games that haven't gotten popular are paying the gas fees for your success right because it's plugging up that cluster so you want to be able to break off and very easily move and adopt think like when you upscale on like aws as you run the web 2 service, you need to add more power to the backend, let's say for the non-technical people. And that might be making a lot of replicas and changing the way the databases work and so forth. So you think that with Orbit Chains, you have that capability and supporting the community.

[20:35] As long as you give a 10% back to the DAO, there's a lot of support available for you. So it's actually 8% goes to the DAO and 2% goes to the Arbitrum Developer Guild. Now, Stylus is.

[20:46] Is actually an idea that was around a long time ago, like eWASM or WebAssembly, which lets people program in language other than Solidity. I don't think there's any good development company that'd be like, we can't learn Solidity. But the fact is, there's like 500,000 or whatever number of Solidity developers, maybe. And there's like 3 million Rust developers and like 12 million C++ developers in the world who already know those languages.

[21:11] So there's the humans that can already do that. There's a bunch of legacy applications and open source infrastructure that can make their work faster and easier if they are allowed to use languages that that already exists in. And on top of this, you know, we've seen like almost a thousand X reduction possible in gas fees using these languages. So there's just some things you can do with these chains. There's not only Orbit where it's like the fee base, there's also Nova chain, which is great for social and gaming where you want to pay the fees or you want no fees or whatever you want. So really, it's about coming in, getting developer support and figuring out which use case, which stack is best for you. Super cool. I have always associated Arbitrum with just DeFi and it's really cool to hear about all the other use cases that it's being used for and how it's expanding. Oh yeah. There's a $400 million gaming catalyst program on the table in the DAO right now. And so people have seen in DeFi, we've put out in the last, what, six months, something like 120 million user liquidity incentives. Yeah, let's go gaming. Let's go gaming. All right. So now we've reached the end of this debate, and I'm going to give you all a chance to give your concluding statements. Feel free in your closing statements to attack what anybody else has said or to add on to anything that you've said. How much time for each?

[22:38] Let's keep it to two minutes. All right. Two minutes a piece. So you've kind of snaked. You want to go first? You go first. Yep, Hudson. All right. Closing statement. Closing statements. So I think...

[22:50] If you look at all the L2s, they all have their pros and cons right now, but I think looking into the further future, we can look at the past to see both in blockchain and in technology what has worked and what hasn't. I think that Arbitrum does have a very strong DeFi presence right now. I think beyond DeFi, I'm not seeing a lot of cases for generalized programmability for use cases that are going to go beyond things that are shared value liquidity.

[23:15] Also, when it comes to stylus, I think that is a great innovation. I think there's been at least 10 other attempts to do a Wasm style smart contract language. I was actually at the Ethereum foundation when they attempted theirs. And part of the problem is when you're using Wasm in a browser, it is a third party that is not controlled by crypto, keeping up with that standard, the W3C, which is notoriously slow. There's also gas estimation problems, et cetera. So I do love stylus because I think it's the best attempt yet at doing it. But that's one thing. Optimism. I go to the website. You go to the main page about what does optimism do, and it's like, we're here to have public goods funding for grants. We're the public goods funding chain. I think that that's not going to scale as well because that focus is already being galvanized by things like CSR, where when you send money to a smart contract, the burn-free fee from $15.59 goes to the contract creator, and that's going to be in these roll-up chains and op-stack chains as they get a little bit better at integrating that. So I think that when it comes to long-term stuff, Polygon has this aggregation layer we're really pushing. We're developing it very quickly so that beyond DeFi and beyond things that people can innovate on public goods, we have a stack where all the chains can come together and share liquidity. But not just coins.

[24:31] Like if you have video games that we already have like a large gaming presence, but like want to trade, you know, a sword from this game with a gun from another type of game. It's instant. There's not like a cross chain waiting period. And that's value. That's liquidity pools of value for that gaming industry. So in the next couple of years, you're going to see a really strong presence of coins. Any kind of use case using our unified liquidity and aggregation layer among all of these ZK roll-up chains and CDK chains on our system. Well, let me just put on my polygon hack. I feel like you just – I mean, Hudson, come in and hot, attacking Joe and Benji. I'm sure you both – You said spicy earlier. I'm usually a pretty nice guy. I love it. I love it. I love it. I said spicy and I said keep it friendly and you did both. Joe and Benji, I'm sure you guys are dying to respond to that because he just came at you hard. So which one of you would like to go next? You first.

[25:30] All right, Benji, let's hear your closing statement. Okay. I'd love to use the two minutes to talk about the super chain because I think it speaks for itself. I think I'll just list out what we're doing and the audience can come to their own conclusions. Okay. [25:44] We are building a super chain with multiple different chains that are all coordinating. The core dev rate is growing. so you're not just privy to op labs and that development as i said before 30 of the code in the last upgrade was actually made by base now what is base coinbase obviously 120 million users the fastest way to on ramp into crypto we're entering a market where we want more like people to use crypto in general where they're going to use they're going to use coinbase now where are they going to go from coinbase likely the super chain so that that's one thing now when we think about like the growth of crypto we've used metrics like tbl we've used metrics like that a ton what What is TVL? Is total value locked? But where does that come from? It comes from the people who are locking that value. When we see things like Farcaster, Farcaster is not taking Ethereum's liquidity, but it's bringing Ethereum's social graph. That's where the liquidity comes from anyway. So how can you actually create this moat where real users can come on chain, real builders can come on chain, build in a stack that multiple people are contributing towards, and actually invite developers to be doing so. The other thing is now the optimism stack. We are completely open source. We've been so since day one. The super chain is an opt-in thing that you want to opt into if you want to get shared upgrades and you want to grow together and have things like We Love the Art and these contests and these shared innovations that occur. What does that mean for the future? What does that mean for a builder if you build an OP chain? Well, because it's open source, because it's opt-in, you will always have the right to exit. We will always protect that. If you're an institution that's coming in, there's no lock-in. There's nothing like that.

[27:07] Furthermore, people sometimes go about governance. What if governance has capture? I think a lot of governance systems in crypto have token-based governance only. Most of the DAOs do. We have a bicameral system. We have a token house and a citizen's house. It's a meritocracy. The citizen's house can veto changes, ensuring that things are safe. So ensuring that a whale cannot come and take over everything. The other parts in this is like, I think our general focus has been, how can we find a way to scale blockchains to be there for the real person? How can we build a human internet as well? How can we create a space where I can log in every day and use every day? Okay. Like how can we create a space for that to exist? Okay. Forecaster. Those are sort of the goals. I think there's a real need in the world today to fix like general problems that blockchains have been saying that they're going to fix for ages and just have not done. We've just been in our niches. Same thing. Oh, try it here. Try it here. fork this. Let's do it again and again. Like, what are new things? Where are they coming out? And I think I see a lot of those on the super chain. I see a lot of those going across the super chain. I see Zora doing incredible stuff. I see base, like just absolutely killing it with so many different apps, so many new builders. I see Jesse Pollock there every day sending pizza around the world. Like people love him. He's legend. I see, you know, innovations like Farcaster, obviously bringing everyone in crypto together. I'm seeing like Solana people and Ethereum people hang out in the same spot for once. I'm seeing traders and builders in the same spot, playing frames. I'm seeing in the world outside of crypto, like 64 global elections are happening. There's going to be bots everywhere. There's going to be deep fakes everywhere.

[28:35] Farcaster has an opportunity to be the human social media. That is a real world use case that I can go to my mom and say, hey, do you want to use a social media that doesn't have bots? Like, I think that's the sort of future that we're heading towards. That's the sort of innovation that we're pushing out. Obviously, there's RetroPGF, there's 800 million OP dedicated towards that, and all sequencer profits on the OP mainnet and a sequencer revenue share from all the other chains go back to builders go back to the people we have 500 million op of airdrops left still so you'd see like we recently did a 10 million op creator one but like the real thing is like how can we create a coordination layer for everyone in crypto to kind of come in and we're not trying to like take slices of a small pie but we're trying to build a bakery essentially and let's cook love it let's cook let's go powerful to just say i'm not even going to attack other people i'm just gonna let optimism speak for itself because it is that good joe which approach are you gonna take are you gonna take the hudson approach of attacking your opponents come at me bro the bingy approach well let's hear your closing statement well out of respect for you and saying you wanted spicy let's go spicy let's go uh.

[29:41] You know, I mean, I think it's really cool what both of these projects are doing, right? Polygon and Optimism, and of course, Arbitrum.

[29:48] And what we're really trying to do is scale Ethereum together. So we're in a race for digital public infrastructure that's actually credibly neutral, that's not going to rug people, right? So this is success together is existential. And so I think we are finding our own pockets of what we're going to go for. And I think Arbitrum has found that freedom for the builders is the best way to do that. It's allowing the technology to innovate faster. So when we think that like our DAO in a cross section, when we thought about what are our DAO's priorities, we surveyed 17,000 people and used topical analysis along with putting all that data in LLM. Doing votes across like two, three different platforms to find out what the community was actually thinking and looking at the distributions, understanding did the top choices change from delegates or whales to, you know, minnows and so forth across the ecosystem.

[30:45] And the very specific words that came out of what our ecosystem about is spearheading the evolution of decentralized technology and governance. And we do that by giving freedom. Our grants program, you know, our DAO voted in as the first one, a pluralistic grants framework, which says we want anybody to be able to come in and ask for money to then distribute using a plurality of mechanisms. And one of the things I'm working on is how do we solve the problems that happen with that? But you can just see from the sequencer fees all being given to the DAO, the elections happening on chain, the orbit expansion program being launched, that's code that off-chain labs put out.

[31:24] The DAO adopts it, and that all goes to the DAO, right? It speaks for itself in that way. And so when you think about the governance, when you're looking at a plurality of mechanisms for people to distribute the funds versus in a foundation by guiding that work.

[31:43] Which one's more freedom, which one's more decentralized and so forth. So, you know, if what we're building is like digital public infrastructure, that's really neutral. We need to solve how to maintain the political decentralization as well as the technical decentralization. But one thing we all haven't figured out is how do you keep it organized, right? We can do the decentralized autonomous, but then we tend to sacrifice that for organization. And the only thing we've solved is centralizing it. So I see Arbitrum is now on the Dow side. We already have...

[32:18] Deep liquidity and technical maturity from the more centralized side of the ecosystem that started off and gave it to the DAO. The DAO is now trying to really innovate strong on the governance side. And I think that if impact equals profit, I think freedom for builders will actually resolve in more impact. But I'm very respectful and excited about the innovation that they're bringing both from Polygon and Optimism. And we're all going to learn from each other and make Ethereum successful. Nice. way to wrap it up we want all of these chains to succeed but for right now i want to hear from the audience which chain you guys are most bullish on after listening to this debate okay so we'll start with uh if you think arbitrum is the best chain i want to hear you clap and cheer, okay there's a little okay okay okay what about polygon.

[33:16] That was a bit uh less enthusiastic what about optimism, i think optimism is the winner i think that was the loudest i heard cool before you guys go thank you all so much for participating in this debate i thought all three of you did a phenomenal job and amazing seriously amazing i know we're a little bit over time so let's go ahead and wrap up tell people before you go just where they can find you if they're watching in the live audience or if they're tuning in on the podcast later best place to find you joe yeah disruption joe everywhere amazing hudson at hudson jameson on twitter and farcaster and benji benji underscore x on twitter at benji on farcaster can i make a request yeah so we clap for arbitram we clap for optimism we clap for polygon i think we should clap for the thing that we're all pushing towards which is ethereum ethereum ethereum's winning ethereum maxi love it love it okay well that's a wrap thank you everybody for tuning in.

[34:18] Music.