Denver In Studio Podcast Production

Transcript

[0:02] Welcome to Beyond the OR with Dr. Kevin Brenner. I'm a board-certified plastic surgeon in Beverly Hills. I want to take you beyond my world of plastic surgery, diving deep into exciting hot topics and delving even deeper into compelling characters that I've met along the way. We'll be talking with attorneys, actors, comedy writers, Navy SEALs, and many other fascinating and inspiring people with truly intriguing stories to share. So let's jump right in. Welcome back to Beyond the OR. Today, we have a really special show for you. I have the honor and privilege of having a friend of mine on the show, but someone that you guys probably know or have heard of. We've been in the works trying to get him on the show for a couple years now.

[0:51] Our guest is a Navy SEAL, but not just any Navy SEAL. He started from a humble childhood in Alaska, made his way to the Navy, to Coronado, through BUDS, on to SEAL Team 5, and then, screened for SEAL Team 6, was on SEAL Team 6, and was on a mission you may have heard of called Neptune Spear. Welcome to the show, Mark. Glad to be here. It is, honestly, and I've told you this before. It's just, uh, I'm so like humbled and, uh, um.

[1:29] You know, honored to be not only have a talking relationship with you, but actually we have a friendship with you because I knew about you well before I knew you. And I got to say, Mark, of all the interviews that we've done, Dr. Brenner has been excited pretty much about all of them, but this interview is something that he really wholeheartedly was really dying to have. As a fan of... Of yours and a friend, you know, but I, this opportunity is really, um, what an amazing opportunity. I've mentioned before, and I know you both know this, I don't do a lot of these and I only do them with people that I trust and appreciate. So, so that's, it just took a while to get the schedule, but, uh, so do you trust or appreciate me one or the other?

[2:23] Wow. Okay. Well, that's, but here we are, but here we are. All right. So, so we got, we have a lot of ground to cover. I know you've been through this a zillion times, but your story is so interesting and convoluted and chock full of really cool stuff. I want to start with you decide to leave the Navy. We're going to pick up Captain Phillips and we're going to pick up Osama bin Laden later on the show but you leave the navy why did you leave the navy you we had been on seal team five and then seal team uh six for i've been in the teams 14 years so i got out at the 14 year mark okay um during those 14 years i did 13 back to back to back deployments um my longest break was going through the nine month selection and training process to get into my former unit green team yeah which which is not a break at all by any stretch but that was my longest break um i uh you know you're in the military you gotta do 20 years to get a pension or retirement i knew that everybody's very well aware of that but uh as i looked around and looked at a lot of the senior guys above me they were on their second divorce and um.

[3:47] I don't know. I just I got to the point where I checked all the boxes off that I wanted to check. I knew if I stayed in the Navy any longer, I'd move more into the administrative side of things, which is very clearly what I avoided my whole career. I wanted to stay operational. That's where all the fun was happening. Staying in for the retirement, the retirement numbers aren't stellar by any stretch of the imagination. I just got to the point where I was like, all right, I'd done everything I needed to do in my career. We'd just taken out the big man the my very first deployment 9-11 happened the last operation i was on my helicopter crash landed into the compound so it seemed like oh was that the last mission you were on you didn't do anything after that nothing last last deployment that was literally well i had a whole bunch of neck problems so there was a lot of things that added up to me saying okay looking at my career this was kind of good bookends to hey maybe it's time for me to get out um had you always had love for the military is this something you always wanted to do is being in the military how did you get into the military i was a young punk junior high kid who read a book for a book report in middle school what was that book do you remember uh men with green faces um oh geez and i'm gonna forget the uh the author real quick but men with green faces.

[5:08] Um about the seals it was anonymous it was anonymous yeah no no i've actually met him um i've got a photo you did right because he went he was speaking at some engagement yep yep i connected with him in reno nevado and uh yeah close um but got to meet him shake his hand he he wrote the book right that kind of set me on my path so what about that book set you on your path what that just seemed like the hardest craziest stuff i could read right that was my first book i read i was like wow this the seal team stuff sounds pretty crazy i was i was i was in alaska in a remote village so like running around with a gun and playing around the water hunting things all of that seemed very natural to me so i read this first book i'm like all right this sounds pretty cool sounds like a big challenge and you know i didn't know what i didn't know i'm in a in a village in alaska right and i drove a snowmobile to school every morning the internet wasn't wasn't hopping at that point but so but but why the navy why why the seal team well because then i proceeded to read every other army navy air force book out why not delta force why not why because the seals in my in my estimation and all of my research seem to be the hardest it seemed to be the most challenging still seems to be the hardest right.

[6:23] I'll let others rank it, but, uh, yeah, it's pretty challenging. And you're like, this is what I want to do for a living. Yeah. Well, I'm like, all right, what do I do after high school? Um, and I wanted to join the military. Nobody in my family had ever been in the military, no service. My parents were missionaries. So I had, I kind of learned the service mentality from my parents serving as missionaries in Alaska. So I got the kind of service mentality. Um, I told them I wanted to join the Navy after high school. They said no you got to get like an education you got to go to college so i went to college in la and then soon as i graduated i enlisted and then you leave abadabad you fly back to jalalabad, you're there for a couple hours right or a day or a couple days how long were you there before jbad maybe an hour and then we flew to bagram and then when and you came home right away or was that the end of your tour like you were just there just for that yeah like i i don't count Now, if I say 13 deployments, the bin Laden mission, the Captain Phillips, neither of those even count for the 13. Those are extras.

[7:32] 13 means 13 where you deploy and you're gone for a minimum of 90 days. I did six-month deployments. I did a whole bunch of three-month deployments, but minimum of 90 days to count as a deployment. So, and that mission was in May of 2011. You decided to leave. How long after that? December. In December. On terminal leave. January of 2012? Of 2012? Okay. Terminal leave, yeah. And then... You're like, I want to write this book. I need to tell everyone about this. Right? So you authored, and we have it right here, No Easy Day. Yep. Right? Why? Why? Excellent question, Kevin. Excellent question. I mean, listen. And the reason I'm asking this is, and correct me if I'm wrong, and I know you'll correct me if I'm wrong.

[8:28] Everything i've read learned every everyone who's in special forces like right there's a shroud of secrecy around it and there and there certainly was hold on a shroud of secrecy around what around the teams and operational security there was what secrecy and security no there was up and up until, the bin laden mission right captain phillips happened before that there's plenty of press about the seals there's been i would argue i've been reading about the seals since vietnam.

[8:59] They've been in they've been in high profile this isn't like oh so top secret the navy seals don't exist we've been hearing about them from every single conflict right but you i can remember we didn't really know a lot before that before 2011 we really i read a ton of books we as i would say we the general public didn't know a lot you were living it so you were interested in so you grabbed everything you could right the general public didn't know they we knew about it but didn't really know about i think it was a cross between as the internet came out and just the the the mass content that you can find on the internet one before that it was only books and guys like me who sought it out the content's always been there it's how you find it i think it's gotten more publicized after bin laden clearly because it was such a big traumatic event for our country and now to say hey we've got bin laden every news source out there wanted to meet a navy seal and that now all of a sudden not just any navy seal there was 24 of you on the mission right yeah so they wanted to talk to the guys who were there.

[10:00] Yes. Yeah. No, sure. Absolutely. And you were primed for that because you were, you were running point, right? I mean, you were up on the third floor. I was involved, heavily involved in the mission as, as everybody else was. Right. Back to your point or back to your question. Why did I write the book? Listen, within, we already talked about how there's been books about the seals and the special operations since I was in junior high. This is not a new thing to happen. right um i knew within two weeks after the mission that they were doing the zero dark 30 movie right right we had uh leon panetta approved uh the whole movie right we go to retirement ceremony at langley virginia and panetta introduces us to katherine bigelow and mark boll the hollywood producers for the zero dark 30 movie within two weeks of the raid so we knew there was movies coming out i had been hit up by other authors writing a book about all of this. How true to the word was Zero Dark Thirty? It seems like it was pretty... He dies in the end. No, no, just in terms of the... The accuracy of it? Of the mission, yeah. Like I said, he dies at the end. You watch that movie and you're like... Can you picture in your mind? Yeah. Same thing. I've only watched it once and never again. I've watched it many times. I'm a little bit obsessive about that stuff. He's obsessed with Navy SEALs.

[11:30] Because it's so interesting to me. It's like I could never do it.

[11:35] Listen, I had a lot of stamina to go through the training I went through, but it's completely different. It's where you set your commitment level. You chose I could not be a doctor, wouldn't have done it, right? my sister's a teacher. Not in a million years could I handle kids in a classroom and being a teacher. I think it's where you put your commitment level. And I don't care who you are and what you do. Commitment's commitment. Okay. So you could have done fine. Maybe. Although I do have flat feet. So who knows?

[12:02] Okay. So why you, why were you the first one to pen a book? I was getting out. I was, I knew I wanted to tell the story. I wanted to do it in the right way. I had heard all these other stories coming out by other people and definitely pointing all the credit to other people and nobody in any of those versions that were coming out. And they were there was every version of the bin Laden mission was leaked within 12 hours. And by none of the seals that were on the mission, all a bunch of politicians and everybody else who was claiming for their own glory moment of greatness. Yes. Where the 24 of us who actually risked our lives, nobody was saying anything. And so as somebody who's grown up reading books and certainly lived the life, I wanted to tell it and tell it in the best way I could. That's why I, right. I've chosen to know the fake name and I don't show my face. And there's a whole bunch of reasons for why I've gone about doing things the way I have. Yeah. For those of you who are listening to this and not watching it on YouTube we have, I haven't addressed the elephant in the room, but you can't see Mark because he doesn't like his face shown. Some might argue because they can't handle how handsome he is.

[13:18] Nobody's arguing that. Was there talk amongst your teammates about that in any capacity? About what? Telling the story? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I talked to multiple guys before I wrote it. And what was the general consensus? It's like, hey, we need to tell the story. It was already leaking at all the higher-up levels, and it was for all their own good. And so the guys I talked to were like hey let's do it the right way and and the right way in my mind was hey not not be the individual out in front of this saying hey look at me I've done any of this fake name you know right I work my neighbors have no clue who I am I'm not asking for any credit for because I've heard other people speak publicly about it right and this was both before and after I knew you about the very much condemning the fact that you even did it.

[14:13] Yeah and there was a lot of flack for a contingent that tried to character assassinate me because i wrote a book they didn't ask questions they didn't ask anything it was just automatic hey he wrote a book let's crush him i could i could list on two hands all of the special operators from delta force to seals the army green berets who've written books since since mine came out so the whole narrative that special operators don't talk i say is bullshit i think it was just a targeted assassination because of the timing of it. My book came out before the presidential election. Well, and I would also imagine, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the amount of what you Navy SEALs go through to get to where you're at mentally, physically, I mean, that is something that, you know, I can't even imagine, you know, and I hear the stories and literally my palms to start sweating. You know, you guys are a very special...

[15:13] Team. It takes very special people to have that mind. Crazy kind of special. Definitely special. And so, and so I can see why you've dedicated your life to this. Why wouldn't you want to write a book and tell the real story of it's out there already, right? It's already. So why not get the story from, I would say the horse's mouth. I think that was a key component of it. Everybody else was telling it for their versions. Right. And the reasons they were approved was because it was an election year and the powers that play at the top of our government and decision makers, they're very good at patting their own backs and telling all their own great heroic stories of their decision making. Right. Nobody at my level was was trying to tell the story in the right way. And so that's all I tried to do was tell the story in the right way, not take credit for it, make it about the team and disappear. Right. My real name leaked. And then all the drama went from there not one person ever asked me how did we even get to the point of publishing the book without the government knowing right i hired an attorney i followed that attorney's advice to a t we had all the government stuff i've since sued that attorney for his advice that's what caused a lot of the because he gave you i mean he fucked you over on that that would be a very well, Very clear way to say it.

[16:36] Very clear way to put it. Yeah. I mean, I hired, I'm like, Hey, I'm going to write this book. I already knew that Panetta had authorized the movie. I already knew that president Obama was given interviews for his book. All these things were supposed to come out before the election. I clearly knew this was a delicate topic. So the first person I hired was an attorney, a former SOCOM attorney who'd represented a Delta force officer who wrote a book about bin Laden first guy I hired on my team and then listen to his advice in my um what do they call it the letter you get from the attorney that when you sign them on you're the retainer yeah he actually spells out in his letter that he can clear it for me and he can do all these things so I followed his advice to a tee when the book came out and the government went high and right I hired a second attorney re-engaged with the government cooperate went through everything and then sued my attorney, won, got an apology letter from him. But the government and all the headlines that came out at the time, that's said and done. Well, I want to pick up where you said something that your name got leaked. So can you tell us a little bit about that? Wasn't it in 2012? Was it Fox? Ten minutes after the book came out, basically. Right. On Fox? It was a Fox News producer on the online side that ran the story with my real name. And how do you think that happened? Because you went to great lengths.

[18:00] Anybody could have read it that, that knows me and be like, Oh, that's no, I know. But like, Oh, you think, you think one of your teammates? Yeah. I wouldn't say my teammates, but somebody in NS somebody in Naval special warfare that knew enough about me and tied two and two together. And I was like, Oh yeah, that's, that's, well, that sucks.

[18:16] Well, I mean, I don't, I don't, I don't think so because I think it is what it is. Do you feel that's fine to dis almost compel you or motivate you to want to keep writing it and want to keep telling stories? No. Yeah no the the process of all the drama on the first one did not make me want to, encourage me to keep telling stories no not initially at all okay not initially it's come around and now it's very therapeutic clearly i've written a second book i'm working on a third one now it's been very therapeutic and and i'm gonna i'm gonna have to use my third one to pay off my first one anyway so you're still paying it down huh yeah yeah the the dod kind of screwed you over on that one big time well no my attorney screwed me over on that well the dod but the dod sued you right nope wasn't the department who well nothing no never a lawsuit never anything just a whole bunch of threats and accusations and five years later they said look there's not even anything classified in the book you didn't leak anything classified nothing in there you just failed to seek pre-publication review okay i said okay well that's why only reason the only reason i said well the only reason i made that decision was because i hired the attorney and here's all the emails to prove i don't care they don't care and so doesn't support doesn't support their narrative and so the financial penalty for that was what right well.

[19:33] They wanted all the book money back from no easy day so okay well let's back up the book did very.

[19:39] Well sold a ton of copies it was new york times bestseller it it claimed to fame it took down 50 shades of gray off the.

[19:46] Number one new york times and that was and we got no sex in my book so but we took down um i don't know where i was going with that i'm sorry uh financial penalty oh yeah so the book you're paying the book did really well it made some money so what does the government do if they're coming after you they outspend you right they outspend you and and that's no joke right and especially i had no retirement no pension no anything from i got a plaque with my name misspelled when i after my 14 years of service so wow so they they outspend yeah thanks so they outspend you on lawyers so thankfully i had all the money from the book so i could pay my attorneys to keep fighting the government the doj who kept they disappear and come back and six months later they'd come back and forth and back and forth and so i spent over a million dollars in five years on my legal back and forth and and if i didn't have the book money i would have had to settle i wouldn't have had the money to fight my own government on these bullshit claims and so five years in then they came back and said okay we're done just give us all the book money back well i i'd spent over a million of it i mean i i believe you on the million dollars no the lawsuit stuff was was no joke and i dealt with that for over five years and then i sued my attorney and then i've gone back to the government and it's been a it's been a nightmare but it's like you this is this is like.

[21:11] Someone who had your back for 15 years, right? Or someone. Did they ever really have my back? Well, they trained you. The government never had my back. How much money do you estimate that? That I made? Maybe 60 grand a year? No, no, no.

[21:27] Bringing in the big bucks. How much? 60 hold? 60, 70 grand a year might have taught me out. Wait, by the way, that's more than I made when I was a surgery resident. All right.

[21:37] And the hours were similar. I can't. You know, after all this vigorous, after everything you've had to go through, after your book comes out, what do you want your readers to come out knowing or feeling when they read your book? I think just authenticity with any of them, period. With anything I'm putting out or saying or writing. Right. Whether it's the, I mean, I didn't set out to teach anybody anything with no easy day. And I think people have pulled stuff out of it. I know hero was much more of, Hey, these are all the mistakes that I've made. These are lessons that I've learned. Maybe they translate and that's been good. Um, and then the one therapeutic to you also, do you, do you feel like, do you have any PTSD? Let's say from, you know, going to work. My, my cousin is in the military and he suffers really bad from PTSD. He was deployed like 13 times and how, um, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, has that affected you at all? And if it hasn't, how? I drool a little bit and I have some crazy other ticks. We've talked about it before, right? I mean, PTSD. But what you said was what Tyler Gray told you, right? Yeah. So, so there's a very good friend of mine. He's actually on the TV show, a former army tier one unit guy named Tyler Gray.

[23:01] He's phenomenal individual. And we were working together on the, on the seal team show. And, uh, and he's like, listen, you know, we don't have PTSD, right? We have LTSD. What is that? Okay, Tyler, what's LTSD? He's like, well, we have lack of traumatic stress disorder. I'm like, okay, explain that. He's like, well, think about it for, okay. I was in the, in the military 14 years, 13 deployments. My Monday, Wednesday, Friday was to me and my friends are going to go to your house. We're going to pick the lock on your door. You've got 10 friends with guns inside and we're going to sneak in the house and we're going to sort that out like Monday, Wednesday, Friday for a decade.

[23:40] So what you find out is the longer you do that, the more calm and the chaos you become. And that's just your norm. It's not like it's a chaotic, crazy night. It's just your normal. You go to work. Right. So then you leave the military. That's your baseline. Right. So guys in the special operations community, we now get out and we have lack of traumatic stress. Nobody's we're not raiding houses anymore every Monday, Wednesday, Friday. Well, hopefully not. Well, yeah. But what's fascinating back to Tyler, right, is you take a guy like him and put him in the chaos of a TV set with hundreds of people running around trying to do stuff. And Tyler's in his happy place because he's back in the chaos that he was used to. It doesn't have to be getting shot at chaos, but just chaos nonetheless.

[24:27] You realize that perhaps one of your books might have the effect that you had when you were 15 years old and read the book. I know they have. That's one of the coolest things about all of this. And I have an Instagram account. I hate social media, but I do it just so I can talk to these young kids who want to join. And I've probably got 10 or more kids who've read the books, whatever, joined the Navy. Now some are at my former command. Some of them have done their career. now they're getting out and moving on to different things. So, so I know that we've definitely had an effect. So how do you now come back into when, when you're in that chaos, right? And you come back home, how, what, how, what's that adjustment? Like what? I'm trying to figure that one out. You're like, you gotta run carpool. I'll let you know when I, when I figure it out. Yeah. Yeah. Carpool can be pretty crazy in the morning. It can be. Hey, it's a high stress environment. Those Ritalin moms aren't joking around well i know i've told kevin this story before but i volunteered at uh at a local elementary school um this is like dad's program they come in and help out at the school and so the i go volunteer at the front office at the school they have no idea my background they just know i'm one of the dads oh my god they're like hey uh this is amazing can you work as part of your dad duty today can we give you this reflective vest and the stop sign and can you go work the crossing guard.

[25:54] Sure you know i'm overqualified for this but it's gonna be a safe intersection okay i'm doing my duty you don't understand i've been in green face and camouflage for the last 20 years so i'm working the the crossing guard and the intersection and i see this guy walking up he'd parked his car some distance away he had a kid in each you know holding each hand and he walks across the crosswalk and he has a seal team six hat on like man we don't really have those hats right we don't we don't sell those hats we don't we don't wear those we have squadron hats it's a it's a whole different thing so i let him go to the school he drops the kids off now he's coming back out so i'm gonna talk to him clearly i'm not gonna just let him go right so i let the traffic now start passing and i'm standing there he's standing next to me he's like why is this guy not moving the stop sign why is the crossing guard staring at me so weird like well i'm like hey man i like your hat you know were you in the teams yeah i was like wow you know team six those guys those guys are the ones that got bin laden you know you you weren't a part of that were you and he literally looks around left and right like he's all serious i don't like to talk about it but i was so without without me without me breaking eye contact i was like no shit so was i.

[27:16] And i just keep staring and i just keep staring at what was his face like when you said he was confused because the crossing he's clearly thinking the crossing guard is he thinks you're okay and it's i'm like no no seriously i was on chalk one i i don't remember seeing you there which which bird were you on and he couldn't answer and i'm like well actually who was the master chief and what buds class be all right a couple quick questions and he couldn't he didn't have any and then it did you safely walk him across this crosswalk or did you just kind of Help him out there a little. Try not to kill him in the parking lot of the school with your stop sign. And so how did you end it? We left amicably. But he didn't say anything? He'll never wear that hat again. There was words communicated. He took off his hat and left. He started backpedaling? I think he was just massive. The guy was on the third floor, man. He didn't give me any details, but he wouldn't admit guilt. He just backed away as quickly as he could and was just needed to leave. And I assume you never saw him again. I've seen him twice more at the school. Never with a hat. He won't talk to me. He's just.

[28:24] He's probably scared. He probably hired a private investigator. He's so worried that crossing guards lying to him. That's great. So, okay. So, so that was no easy day. What, uh, what was the time interval between that and no hero? A couple of years. I believe I'm horrible with dates and, and, and you wrote no hero because why, what did you feel was missing apart from the fact that, uh, you had all of the proceeds stolen from you from the first book. Well, uh, no hero one, I was paying a ton of money towards legal bills and I needed, uh, to help cover that. Um, but then I got such a positive response from no easy, the people who read it honestly and uh got a lot of takeaways from no easy day and i got a lot of comments and had a lot of good interaction with folks who read it it was like well maybe i should follow up with some more of my lessons learned i didn't really i didn't know what i didn't know i'd never lived in the civilian world right right people talk about oh you got to re-transition into civilian life after the military i'm like i never lived in this college doesn't count.

[29:33] Then i joined the military yeah and now i got out i didn't know how to re-transition yeah because because no easy day is is interesting if you're interested in that mission no doubt this is this is much more personal right i mean this this really there are a couple stories you tell in no hero that i i freaking love my my favorite and i still i still use this um and i think you signed one of the books with this is is is your chapter on living in your three-foot world you just like it because i'm afraid of heights well you're afraid of heights he jumps at 35 000 feet right that's different than rock climbing that's true um but what can you kind of go through what that means so so the story he's referring to is in no hero and it's example of one of the ones that i i look back on my co career i'm like okay what what mistakes I made, what lessons did I learn, and how can they translate.

[30:35] When you're in the teams, you can kind of pick which some of the different types of training you go through. And I knew when I was a newer SEAL that anything heights related made me uncomfortable.

[30:46] It's a natural feeling, right? You don't just want to be a seal and you're fearless. Like, no, that was something that scared me. So I would sign up for these training classes, rock climbing, skydiving, whatever. So I could be forced into the stuff that scared me the most and I'd have to figure it out.

[31:03] So we're in, uh, outside of Vegas, red rocks climbing area. We've got a world-class rock climbing instructor and the whole team's there and we're going to be climbing. So i start climbing this probably three four hundred foot cliff right i got my rope i got all my pro i'm gonna hook into the the rock so i don't die um but the further i climb the more nervous i get i'm getting higher i'm looking around i finally get like halfway up this this rock face right palms are getting sweaty like i can i can look up i'm like i got a ways to go that's not helping me i can look out and see the vegas strip that's not helping me i can look down and all my friends are now heckling me from below talking smack because they can see that i'm stuck and i'm not continuing to climb so this the story i talk about no hero the the rock climbing instructor that we'd hired who's like professional and crazy like a mountain goat like a mountain goat he decides to climb up next to me so i'm say 200 feet straight up this cliff okay he climbs all the way up next to me with no rope i've got a rope he's got no rope right stops about four feet to my left lights a cigarette and now he's smoking a cigarette hanging on with one hand oh my god no rope oh my god and he's looking at me he's like hey you need to stay in your three-foot world.

[32:22] I'm like i don't know what you're talking about you know put your cigarette out hook into my rope right let's let's talk through this he's like no you you need to stay in your three-foot world and the moral of the story is i was worried about all these things outside of my control so like in the moment on the side of this cliff i can only reach three feet in any one direction it's the only thing i have control over in my life oh my god how much do you worry about things that you have no control over uh i suffer from anxiety all day turn on the news turn on the news in the morning there's a hundred things that you have no control over that you shouldn't stress about right i'd seen one of these uh intel manuals for the bin laden mission that gave us a 70 chance of being shot down just on the flight there just the helo ride there 70 chance you're gonna die could die sign me could get shot down so how do you wrap your head around that don't worry about it so that's simple just don't worry about it there's nothing you can do about it if you get shot out of the sky on your right end you're gonna get shot out of the sky right in you you're not the pilot you won't know he's the pilot you won't know what hit anyway, put us on that put us on that plane or that helicopter like what are you guys talking about like everybody slept on the way in.

[33:36] Slept slept it's not like you slept that well the night before so then you're got an hour and a half where nothing's happening but you're like sardines in this halo pretty crap wow unbelievable like i you know the what you guys do is almost seems superhuman at times and um i was talking to another navy seal that we um interviewed and the story is like literally i i live so much in fear I have a lot of anxiety and then I hear or talk to one of you guys or read something and I'm like man that that is a mindset that I wish we all could access in a way and how do you guys access that I think we just gotta you know the risks of any we we automatically know anything we're doing the risks are life or death let's just start there right there's not really much we're doing in our line of work that's not with those risks. So what motivates you to keep going? Motivating, that's the easy part. To keep doing, there's only a few of us, I can't quit now. Right. It was never that. It was more of, um.

[34:49] Yeah, it was never, you never really need to be motivated to keep doing it. Cause there really, but I mean, what, what, what keeps you like, okay, this is a life and death situation. If I, if I say this is a life and death situation, I'm like, screw the death part. I'm going to go with the life part. Mitigate all your liability and then jump in the deep end.

[35:07] Yeah. I mean, that's what makes it fun is is knowing the risks making all the best decisions you can to mitigate that risk right and then send it like there's something refreshing in that and most people don't ever just jump in the deep end like but mitigate it and then jump in send it the the whole the whole like stay in your three-foot world like you wrote that in or you signed and wrote that in one of my books i didn't really know probably was the second one um i didn't really know what that meant until i read it but and and when i read it i was like holy shit like a light bulb went off works because it worked well for me it worked you you have to be that way right i mean it but like it really because like i'll be operating and thinking about 10 different things this patient that patient you know i have to get this in taxes whatever whatever it is but like when you're in whether whether you have someone pointing shooting at you with an AK-47 or if you have someone asleep on this on the OR table like you really you have to stay focused like you got to stay focused on that like what can I control and you can't freak out because it doesn't doesn't do you any favors and it's and it's not doing anyone else around you any favors if you freak out yeah and that so that that kind of whole philosophy has really helped me believe it or not so you had no easy day. You had...

[36:37] No hero, and then you're in the middle of your third memoir. Is the third one a memoir as well? Yes. Okay. It is not fiction. It is not fiction. None of this is fiction. None of it. Do you have a title for it? Working title until somebody tells me otherwise. I literally want the same cover as No Easy Day. Same everything. Just in Navy fashion, right? We one-line words that we don't like, So I'm just going to one line day and we're going to put way. So no easy way. You run that by your attorney first. Well, we'll be running this by a ton of attorneys.

[37:19] Okay. So no easy way. Yeah. And it's kind of catchy. It's talking about my, my transition then out of the military, right? First book is what it is. Second book was kind of lessons learned. Third book is okay. What the heck happened to Mark Cohen after the publication of no easy day? I talk a lot about my legal period and then just a lot about my personal, emotional, physical transition. Right. So tell us about that. What the emotional, physical transition, because you went from book one to book two. And then at what point did you get into TV? Because because we didn't we kind of touched on it. but you're executive producer for seal team on CBS paramount and paramount plus and and have been and you guys just wrapped or about to wrap season the final season seven yeah the whole season the whole tv thing we got super lucky with right I had never in a million years thought I would transition my navy seal career to into being an author or anything in the entertainment world at all furthest from my mind um.

[38:31] But people had read the book and wanted to wanted to open the door for some meetings. And so I've met with a whole bunch of people in the entertainment industry. And some of the smarter ones were like, hey, what does Hollywood do wrong with military content? [38:47] Right. That was a great question. I'm like, you know, great. It's not just the Rambo shoot them up moments. I've done plenty of that. Great. But but how do you stay married and try and raise kids? And where's the balance in all of that? And the show, you and the show and the writers, you guys have done an amazing job. I mean, like, I'm obsessed with the show. My girls are obsessed with the show. Well, the reason it works so well is because we've, CBS, where we started, backed me up in that. The idea that, hey, we need to hire veterans. So we mentioned Tyler Gray a minute ago, right? If you know Tyler, he's not only been an actor of stunt stuff, right? He's done tech advising. He's even directed episodes. So we have, we have hundreds of veterans across the production. I would imagine with the flavor of the show, but like you, you've really, there is a human, human side to the show. That wouldn't come out if we didn't have the veterans rubbed off on it. That I've never seen before on any military show movie or whatever. Not at least not to the extent. Hollywood's never empowered the veterans. They're always like veteran go stand in the corner and tell us how to wear the uniform. Not, Hey, how do you come back from a mission where maybe one of your buddies just died and then you guys have to talk about it. And then you're going to go notify his wife. Like I've had to do all of the things that are in the show.

[40:08] Right. 90% of it's based off real stuff. We've all been through. That's just thrown in and all the while mixed up trying to maintain a family, right? Cause you have, you have family and you were doing.

[40:23] Dealing with you had kids while you were deployed every seal knows they're going to go to combat and deal with seal stuff that's the easy that's the expected that's the known what's harder in the unknown is dealing with family and and your kids and all this other stuff like that's unfortunately they're not the priority right i mean like staying alive doing those seal stuff right and you were doing what you had to do and i like i mean like for me if i if i was if i if my job required that I was away for six months and I couldn't have dinner with my family I don't know that I could do that yeah I mean like how do you come to terms with that you just do because if you don't you wouldn't I wouldn't have made it through SEAL training had I lacked the commitment.

[41:11] You know early on what it's going to take and it's going to take all of you it's going to leave nothing left like if look at any look at any pro athlete who was at the very top of their game they had nothing else but that nothing right i had nothing else but the seals and the team around me and that was it i was absolutely 100 institutionalized i didn't hang out with anybody outside my team you can't relate how would you relate now i'm not a seal i've been a seal for years right i'm uh your titles evolve and change and i don't you're a boring civilian i don't i don't i don't look at myself as always a seal i do i uh you put the time you put the dedication you put the hard work you i did it doesn't mean i i don't i didn't have the title but i don't retain that title now and and nor do i want that title now okay i did that i've done that i checked every box in that world there's something to be said i think of it sort of defines your identity to some extent, right? I mean, at least it did for a long period of time. I mean, I identify as a surgeon, right? I mean, it's not...

[42:20] You know, it's not like I'm going around saving people with heart attacks on airplanes all the time. But when you when you cease to do that job and then still consider yourself a surgeon 20 years from your last surgery, are you going to call yourself a surgeon? Are you going to be like, no, I'm a father, a husband, a business owner, whatever. I hear you. I hear that. So for me, when I was in the SEALs, that defined me 100 percent. 100 percent. I lived that to 80. That's why I got to the levels that I did. I would give anything to do it. I sacrificed everything to get to those levels. But the second I got out, I haven't been a SEAL since then. I can see that point of view. I never thought of it that way. And the most balanced, most transitioned veterans that I know are not still trying to be the SEAL they were. They're trying to figure out what they should be next. They're not just continuing to live in the good old days. Back in high school, I was the quarterback. You're not in high school anymore. Right. That makes sense. I never thought of it in that perspective. I always would think like, once you put in that dedication, that you deserve that honor. Almost like once you're board certified, you're always board certified. Yeah. I got the tattoo. Can you share any antidotes? You don't need to show us.

[43:42] Can you share any antidotes or any moment in in the military that had a profound effect on you like is there one pivotal moment that was like holy shit i've had thousands of those moments that are like wow that's deep so i don't know can you tell us just one i'd be it'd be hard it'd be devaluing some of the others like one i don't know i've had a thousands of crazy crazy crazy experiences well and one of them and we kind of touch on this one of them and i think it's in no easy day to be one of the early chapters of no easy day you talk about um.

[44:25] An early mission you were on i think it was maybe your first deployment on seal team six with you and that was your first kill am i remembering that right yeah but like, taking a life is a big deal right any veteran who gets on here talks cool about shooting people, probably they've never done it right it's a big deal to take somebody's life plain and simple period bad guy whatever and so anybody who just i think plays that off is well yeah i mean like when i was a surgery resident i i.

[44:59] There was there was a thing about when you're on call at night like I was determined to not let anyone die on my watch but that was always a thing for me and so like I did whatever I had to and learned and read and what whatever I had to in order to be the best in critical care or whatever it was so that you know it was it was kind of a saying in surgery residency like keep them alive till 705 when the when the new when your relief shift comes in so it's like i'm like i'm not letting anyone die and in and if someone did that was a big fucking deal right and it's like you feel like you've let down everybody yeah even though often death on our side was a little different right death if if you caused it you're shooting other people that's a different death right if one of your boys gets killed that's that's it's just different dealing with all of it and just the emotions around all of that and yeah it's a lot how many times do you estimate that happened to you while you were deployed like so like someone on your team or one of the squadrons you were i mean physically on the mission i'm sure i put it in no hero and the number's gone up since then but i i think we got 43 if i go through the contact list of my cell phone i have 43 contacts that are dead right we've we've lost way more than 43 navy seals since 9 11 right but i knew 43 of them had their numbers in my phone and now i can't take them out.

[46:28] You're writing about all of all of this and and the human side of warfare because you're you're writing about the human side of warfare can you speak the importance about portraying the human experience in a war, you know, in the chaos of, of combat. Cause I think, you know, TV has almost like desensitized war in a way. Could you touch on the humanity part? Everything's sensationalized these days, right? Whether it's the movies or books or whatever. I've tried very, very, very, very, very hard to make sure whether it's the books that I'm involved in or even the TV stuff is as authentic as possible. Right. Right. That's it. That's all you can do and that's what and you don't need to try and so many people try and make their stories even bigger or more crazier like don't just keep it authentic and real when you are writing i don't know how much writing you do for the show um or or writing in your book how do you grapple with the responsibility of representing not just your experience but those around you like is that Is that a challenge to represent your brother's.

[47:43] In uh in an honest but i don't i don't think it's that challenging i i had a whole bunch of crazy teammates that are just amazing people so to find those tidbits and stories and put in the writing or put in the show i think that's easy have you since leaving the navy have you been involved in well i know you have been involved in because we're involved in one together but what i would say what sort of charity types of or military related types of organizations are you involved with because I know that's a big deal to you to to kind of give back right yeah no it's huge right um you don't you don't live a career or service and then get out and it's it's something different uh there's an organization called special operations care fund sock f uh that's one of them that i'm involved with that was formed after a guy on my team named brett shadel died in a parachute training accident and sock f was born um so i'm very involved in that organization and what's their mission they raise funds for the special operations units and kind of the three letter agency guys and uh they help support everything from marriage and family counseling.

[49:04] To some of the mental health stuff that they're really treating to some of the new psychedelic uh treatment programs that are going they raise money for all of that that's kind of the futuristic cutting edge uh treatment modalities yeah there's a lot of great treatments right now so that's that's that reminds me a little it's very similar to um station foundation you're familiar with station foundation right because because we were at that event and i met matt wellborn but and prior to that matt had introduced me to kevin and shannon stacy and they run that they're out of bozeman But it's similar. They're more of a reintegration situation. I mean, I think a lot of people see the similar needs, right? It's the reintegration piece, the mental health piece.

[49:47] You and I have a mutual friend, Doc Bray. Right. This kind of goes back to how we originally crossed paths in the first place was he started Valor for Life, right? After working on me, right? I'd gone out to the VA. Knew i had a whole bunch of neck and back issues from our hard helicopter landing um which which and i'm just going to say this which the va system didn't really take seriously enough to follow through on your workup is that is that fair is that fair to say yeah yeah i'm not a doctor i don't know the system i just know i went i do i've worked in vas and i know how i know how it is um.

[50:29] And, and it's, you know, it's astounding to me that they spend millions and millions and millions of dollars training each and every one of you. And then you get hurt and they're, they won't lift a finger to help. I felt the appropriate medical care when I was in the second, cause I was attached to the high level and we had high level medical care. The second you joined the VA system, it's just the VA system and it's lowest common denominator. So you had, you found it necessary to seek out care outside of that system, right? I tried that system because I was dealing with all my government stuff and I didn't have money to pay for my own medical care. So I had earned the right for VA medical care and I was going to use it. And so I kept going back to my VA doc and I never even got an MRI. I got bags full of pain meds. And after my like my third round of that, I remember my parents were in town visiting and I showed my mom the amount of medication that I had been prescribed for. Man, my neck hurts. I can't drink a beer without my arm going numb, tingling down my legs, etc. And I never got an MRI. I just got all these meds. And so that's when. And how did you end up in Dr. Bray's office?

[51:36] A friend of mine in Los Angeles was like, hey, I've got a friend. He's a former Air Force trained neck and back surgeon. He's got his own facility. He's not a big hospital. I think he might be able to, like, help you. And since he's a veteran, maybe he'll be interested in, you know, doing something pro bono. Then at this point, I was like, hey, I'll take anything. so meeting with doc bray was set uh rolled into his office he like literally before i met him i like check in they're like boom go get your x-ray two doors down go get your mri three doors down and 30 you know an hour later i'm sitting in the office and and the doc walks in and i'd had mri x-rays and now i'm sitting with the doc it'd been a year and a half with the v i'd got none of that right and he's like clear your schedule we gotta we gotta fuse this next week right so that was the first of five and and and through that process five surgeries that you had with with okay and uh and then that's kind of where valor for life was formed and and we have mutual friends that he's also worked on right and it's just kind of grown and grown and what um but so how did that come to be though like you were just like i have other i have other former you know other retirees who need help just the same way? Yeah, I mean, it came to be that, A, Doc Bray was willing to open up his...

[52:57] Office and say, Hey, I have a facility. I have resources I can help. So it started there and it continued. I don't have the resources. I just know the guys who need help who weren't getting it through the VA. And so, um, you know, after I was healthier and continuing to get more and more healthy, I'd talk to other friends, veteran friends that were, that were having issues with their medical stuff. And so at its first, it kind of just started with me calling doc again. And be like hey doc you know uh jack's uh having issues with his back or you know waltz or some of these other people you know would you can can they come out and take a look he's like yeah sure so then that he saw so much of a need and he kept hearing the same story over and over and over again that a lot of us just weren't getting the care we should have gotten uh right should have earned.

[53:45] Um so they uh valor for life was born and the rest is history the rest is history yeah and now you're right 10 different guys that i've worked with rob's worked on and and we're trying to expand it but i did i did my first the first breast the first non-spine orthopedic surgery case for valor for through valor for life for a patient and we're trying to expand that but it's, it's you know i think we need someone to run the organization is the problem i like i like the organizations that are smaller and more strategic and and that's what i think special operations forces are used to yeah like all the all the the 501c3s i'm involved with are small strategic but have a huge impact right i like that all right well great um i think we're going to take a break at this point and then we'll pick up in about five minutes thanks so much for listening to beyond the or with dr brenner make sure to subscribe like and follow so you don't miss any future episodes. In the meantime, hit me up on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok at Kevin Brenner, MD and Kevin Brenner, MD.com.